Q&A: 'THE CLEANING LADY' Creator Miranda Kwok on the Transformative Power of Art (Part 1 of 2)
'I learned that I could have an impact writing and get people to empathize with and have compassion for others'
There was a period during my life in Hollywood where I was meeting emerging screenwriters on an almost daily basis. They seemed to pop up everywhere I went and I struck up friendships with many of them, several of which endure to this day. Unfortunately, I can’t say that about Miranda Kwok.
We met in my kitchen following a WGA event I’d hosted. We discussed the nightmarish experience I had creating my first television series for NBC and Sky, and I offered her some (likely) piss-poor advice for her own journey as I did whenever writers asked me for some. And in the months and years afterward, she invited my wife and I to social gatherings at her house…but somehow life always got in the way of me attending one of them. Then I moved out of the U.S. and she slipped my mind until I read the news that she had created her own TV series — “THE CLEANING LADY” — for Fox.
When I started this artist-on-artist conversation series, Miranda made it on to the initial artist wish list mostly because I wanted to find out what had happened to her between our first encounter and this astonishing accomplishment. But by the end of our chat, I found myself so moved that I felt compelled to email her my disappointment that we hadn’t had a real opportunity to become better acquainted, maybe even meaningful friends, because I found her a wonderful human being and more than a little inspiring. Hopefully you will, too, after reading the two parts of this interview (Part 2 will post tomorrow).
Miranda, as you’ll learn, is a Canadian-born screenwriter who began her career as an actor. She broke into Hollywood staffing on my friend Steven S. DeKnight’s television series, “SPARTACUS”, before moving on to “THE 100” for several seasons. Everything changed in 2019 when Fox greenlit “THE CLEANING LADY”, which she developed, to series. I say developed, as it’s based on an Argentinian series called “LA CHICA QUE LIMPIA”, but this is a strange technicality that doesn’t apply to adapting other works for TV in the States (such as my TV series, “DRACULA”, which I’m credited as the creator of despite Bram Stoker having done 75% of the narrative heavy lifting). “THE CLEANING LADY” was an immediate hit when it debuted and in Season 2 Miranda was promoted to co-showrunner alongside Season 1’s showrunner Melissa Carter. A third season is on the way, which she’ll be back for, as well.
For aspiring and emerging screenwriters, there’s much to learn from Miranda’s detailed accounting of her development journey for “THE CLEANING LADY”. For all storytellers, I encourage you to pay attention to Miranda’s discovery that she could inspire empathy through her art.
COLE HADDON: I went back through my emails, and saw that the last time we saw each other was in 2015. In my kitchen, in fact. You were staffing at the time, but so much has happened since then. You’ve not only created a hit television series, but you were recently promoted to the role of showrunner of it, too – which is almost as big of an accomplishment. Can you walk me through your story since we met?
MIRANDA KWOK: Oh my gosh, that’s right. Our dear friend Tracey Rice brought me to your WGA Candidates Party, and while I can still remember that day, so much has happened since then. Several months after we met, I got staffed on “THE 100” on the CW, and ultimately worked on that show for four years, serving as a Supervising Producer on my last season.
“It was the first time I really realized that as the creator of a show, you get to create the world that you want to live in and show, by example, what a world could be like.”
I have to say that in many ways it was a dream job, not only because I love science fiction, but particularly because it was very much a show about female empowerment - and the writers’ room always had at least 50% women writers that gave voice to the strong, intelligent, powerful, kick-ass female characters on the show. This, of course, had a lot to do with [creator] Jason Rothenberg’s vision, who also created a post-apocalyptic world without sexism, racism, or homophobia, and where color-blind casting was key. It was the first time I really realized that as the creator of a show, you get to create the world that you want to live in and show, by example, what a world could be like. I learned so much from this show and over those four years. I really grew as a writer, learning how to pitch effectively, and honing my craft in the room and on the page. I also have to give credit — and gratitude — to Jason for the opportunity to create “THE CLEANING LADY.”
CH: How so?
MK: After my third season on the show, my contract was up, “THE 100” hadn’t gotten picked up yet, and so I went out for staffing and ended up getting a job offer on another show. When I told Jason and his number two — Kim Shumway — about the other offer, Jason said he wanted me back on “THE 100”, but Kim told him, ‘We’re not picked up yet, we can’t just hold her!’ Jason wasn’t deterred. Instead, he approached Warner Bros. — the studio behind “THE 100” — to see what they could do, and WB offered me a blind script deal if I agreed to come back to “THE 100” if it was renewed. If not, I would still be granted the development deal.
CH: I love hearing stories about showrunners supporting their staff like this. I assume you took the blind script deal?
MK: Yes, he was really great. And of course, I said, yes! Then, soon after “THE 100” got picked up for its final season, so I ended up working full-time on “THE 100” as a Writer/Supervising Producer while developing “THE CLEANING LADY” on evenings and weekends – which is the project we landed on with my blind.
Because of this double duty, I spent about five months developing the pitch with Warner Bros., and my development team, Clancy Collins White, Ashley Cole and Michael Zeeck were really instrumental in helping me shape the show from its infancy. They also encouraged me to pitch the show to broadcast, telling me that networks were now more open to hearing stories from different perspectives and diverse voices. I was honestly dubious.
CH: I think I would’ve been, too.
MK: Right? I figured that a show like this, essentially a female Asian “BREAKING BAD” that focused on a Southeast Asian family, could only possibly exist on cable or streaming, if anywhere. To be really honest, I’m not sure I ever really believed a show like this would ever be made. I was simply just writing stories and characters that I felt passionate about – and doing what I needed to fulfill my blind.
There were times during the notes process when I had dark nights of the soul, where I thought it was never going to be right. Then, two days before I was set to pitch to the networks, WB had me meet showrunner Melissa Carter to potentially partner with. At that time, Melissa told me she had just sold a show to ABC, and she had said to WB not to send her anything because she had to focus on writing her own script, but after reading my pages, she couldn’t say no. She said this show is definitely going to sell. So, she gave me the extra boost of confidence I needed, and after pitching to the five networks, Fox picked it up.
“There were times during the notes process when I had dark nights of the soul, where I thought it was never going to be right.”
CH: I have to ask, how did you celebrate?
MK: Honestly, I didn’t have time! Not for that initial pick up. I was in the middle of writing and prepping an episode of “THE 100” — and it was one of those crazy years where there were a ton of production issues and I remember having to rewrite that episode seven times because things kept changing — schedules, locations, actor avails, everything. So, there was no time for a celebratory dinner or anything.
But my husband and I did end up going to the Philippines over the holidays to celebrate - and, also, for research. The only thing is, when I booked the trip, I didn’t realize that the pilot script would be due right after the holidays, in January, and that all the execs were working through the holidays, too. So, I ended up writing in airport lounges, planes, boats, hotels – and was sending out drafts intermittently when the internet went out on the islands.
CH: Sounds like a lot of my vacations, to be honest.
MK: I actually emailed a draft to the WB execs on Christmas Eve and told them it’s still a work-in-progress, but I wanted to send it that night because a super typhoon was coming on Christmas Day - then joked if they didn’t hear from me, that would be my legacy.
CH: So, how did Warner Bros. and Fox react? It can be an arduous process - development.
MK: When Fox received the draft early January, they said they were impressed by the script, but they were still uncertain what the series would be because a show like this had never been done before. So, they had me come in again to pitch the first season to all the network execs — including Michael Thorn, the president of Fox — and after that second pitch, they greenlit shooting the pilot. It was actually the first drama pilot Fox picked up that year - but after about six weeks of pre-production, on Day 0, the first day we were going to roll cameras, the whole world shut down because of Covid.
“It was actually the first drama pilot Fox picked up that year - but … on Day 0, the first day we were going to roll cameras, the whole world shut down because of Covid.”
CH: I hadn’t realized that. Oh, the timing! You work so hard to make your dreams come true only to find them being undermined by such insane happenstance.
MK: Yeah, it was pretty insane, being on the precipice of filming when everyone was forced into quarantine, feeling like everything was about to fall apart, yet doing everything to hold it together. We actually lost the original actor cast as our leading lady just a few days before everything shut down, but despite all the uncertainty, while other studios and networks were letting go of contracts, Fox and WB were determined to make this show and continued the casting process, even though no one had any idea when we would start filming again.
Élodie Yung was cast [as the lead] after the pandemic began and was basically paid to be on hold indefinitely. And even though we were so close to filming, we hadn’t cast most of our family yet, so in a strange way the quarantine period was a blessing in disguise. We were able to take the time to find the incredible talent we now have. This happened with locations, too. So, if we had shot the pilot before the shutdown, it would have been a different show. We really lucked out that way.
CH: Were you still writing the series at this time?
MK: Most of the quarantine period was spent writing Episode 102, then several months later they informed us we were going into pre-production – and that was before there was even a vaccine. They ended up coming out right when we started production, which was about eleven months from our original shoot date. So, there we were with masks and shields, testing constantly, and trying to stay six feet apart. It was crazy. A real testament to the cast and crew for braving it out under those circumstances.
MK (cont’d): Although there was one very cool thing that happened while filming the pilot. To stay in our bubble, we ended up chartering a plane to fly around 120 members of our cast and crew from Albuquerque to Vegas. Since those were the final few filming days of our shoot, we ended up only flying eighty-some people back. It was great that our crew finally got to take some downtime when the world was finally starting to open up again. Some of them had never even been to Vegas before. It was all pretty awesome.
MK (cont’d): So, yeah, there was something really magical about it all – filming despite the pandemic. All these amazingly talented people coming together to make something special. A show that was like no other. A show that represents people who are normally pushed into the shadows in the real world. People who are often dismissed or disregarded and never had the spotlight before. And by giving voice to people who didn’t have a voice before, by shedding light and compassion on people who weren’t quite understood before, by enlightening audiences by sharing different perspectives and experiences - somehow the show exploded.
“All these amazingly talented people coming together to make something special. A show that was like no other. A show that represents people who are normally pushed into the shadows in the real world.”
It became Fox’s highest-rated drama premiere in two years as well as Hulu’s most-streamed Fox pilot in the network’s history. And then, suddenly, a series about two undocumented Southeast Asian cleaning ladies was being promoted at the World Series and on the jumbo screens at halftime at the NFC Championship Game. Who would’ve thought it? Well, our amazing marketing and publicity teams did. But I think there’s a part of me that’s still in shock.
CH: One of the questions I tend to ask of artists is how present — or how important — the arts were in their childhood, but in your case, I know you were acting both in front of the camera and onstage in Toronto during this early part of your life. So, I think I want to instead know when you began to explore the idea that telling your own stories rather than performing others’ stories was the right path for you.
MK: Yes, I was really fortunate to attend the Claude Watson School for the Arts, the first performance arts school in Canada, when I was just ten years old. I had my television debut when I was thirteen and got my first talent agent at sixteen – but as we know, the roles for Asian women were very limited. I got a black belt in Wushu and played a lot of kick-ass femme fatales.
MK (cont’d): It was a ton of fun doing martial arts and stunts, but ultimately the work wasn’t that substantial for my sensibilities. There was a time when I was debating continuing in film and TV because the roles and opportunities for Asians were so few and far between, but when I saw Sandra Oh on the cover of a magazine for her groundbreaking role in THE DIARY OF EVELYN LAU it gave me hope that things were changing, even though it would still be years — decades actually — for representation of Asian talent to truly change.
CH: I haven’t been fortunate enough to see THE DIARY OF EVELYN LAU. What about it inspired you?
MK: The role of Evelyn Lau was an extremely complex and emotionally wrought character based on the true story of a teenage girl who ran away from home and became addicted to drugs while living on the streets before ultimately becoming an award-winning poet and novelist. It was such a fresh and honest perspective on a different kind of Asian American/Canadian experience – and a perspective that definitely touched my heartstrings.
CH: How did you begin to stumble toward screenwriting as we all seem to do in one form or another?
MK: I had worked on-and-off for about four years as a volunteer counselor for two rape crisis centers and a women’s shelter. I started training when I was seventeen years old and started working on-call when I was eighteen. There was always something that spoke to me — or rather infuriated me — about women and girls who were sexually exploited or assaulted, especially since it happened all the time, with so many women, in so many facets of life. But more than just empathizing with these women and the ordeals they faced, I was also inspired by the resilience and strength of every woman who survived them. And I felt a deep passion to share these stories. I wrote a very rough draft, in screenplay format, to document some of the stories people had shared with me even though I didn’t really know how to craft a screenplay at that time. It was more for me than anything else.
“That was before #MeToo when it was still too uncomfortable for certain people to read about. My agents at the time wouldn’t even put it out as a sample, even though it was about empowering women who found themselves in those circumstances.”
CH: That’s the sign of a true artist, I think. Have you ever looked back at these pages, to reflect on them?
MK: No, I don’t think I need to. I still remember many of the stories from when they were first told to me. It was their stories that impacted me. Not my attempt at trying to put them together in screenplay format, which was way too contrived. But those stories, those are things that never leave you.
MK (cont’d): Although, now that you mention it, I did write an original pilot on spec called “SHELTER” that was also based on my experiences doing this work, albeit a totally different story. But that was before #MeToo when it was still too uncomfortable for certain people to read about. My agents at the time wouldn’t even put it out as a sample, even though it was about empowering women who found themselves in those circumstances. It probably made them uncomfortable that the lead character was in a relationship with another woman, as well. But fortunately, I feel like things have changed and people are more open to different perspectives now. And fortunately, those responses from my former agents didn’t dissuade me from continuing to tell stories from different points of view. There are a lot of things in this business that can discourage and dissuade, but ultimately I was able to stay true to my voice and the things that drive me.
CH: Could you continue the story about how you wound up pursuing a life in the arts?
MK: While I was volunteering as a counselor, I also got an Honors Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and Philosophy at the University of Toronto. I was debating becoming a psychologist or psychiatrist so I could continue to help people in that manner, but I really missed the arts and the joy of creating something and expressing myself in a different kind of way, and I also realized that you can potentially reach more people and help more people by sharing certain stories with them. While you can counsel or advise someone and try to help them on an individual level, sometimes it’s harder for them to take it in that way when it is so personal. A lot of people are more receptive when they’re able to put themselves in other people’s shoes. There are so many people who are closed off in their own lives, but they can sit in a dark movie theater or alone in their own living room and bawl their eyes out because a story or character affected them. By following a character’s journey, you can show someone how to find their courage and strength to get through a situation, rather than just tell them with words. Or simply show them that they’re not alone. That there are people out there feeling the way they do. Feeling alienated or sad or scared or helpless. Sometimes what we need most is just human connection. Or to know that we are all connected through our humanity.
CH: Beautifully put.
MK: So, after making the decision to continue pursuing a career in film and television, I decided to try my luck in L.A. and pound the pavement there. And it was literally pounding the pavement. I went there with nothing - no job, no car, no agent. All I had was my best friend Tamala who just moved there, and I stayed in her studio apartment and slept on a fold-out futon with her, then borrowed her car or took the bus around town to drop off photos/resumes at agencies, hoping to run into agents, trying to find someone to sponsor me – which I ultimately did. But while there are definitely more opportunities in L.A., there is also a lot more competition.
CH: Compared to Toronto, you mean?
MK: In Toronto, all of us Asian actors knew each other and many of us were friends, supporting each other, making sure that if one of us got an audition, that all of us would get the same opportunity. In L.A., every time I went to an audition there were so many different actors I’d never seen before. But it was in L.A. that I also met a lot of other amazing creative people — writers, directors, producers — and, since I’m not the kind of person to sit around and wait for my phone to ring, I realized I could create my own opportunities.
At first, I tried a hand at producing, and through Film Independent, I won a full tuition scholarship for a nine-month Feature Development Program at the L.A. Film School where I produced two shorts. I also worked on a few independent films as a line producer, UPM, and even as a location manager. But with no real credits and limited material, I realized that in order to tell the kinds of stories I wanted to tell, I had to write.
“In that moment, I thought, if nothing else, that was worth it, because I affected her. I moved her. And that was everything.”
CH: What did that mean for you?
MK: I went back to my roots and my passion for telling stories about women and fighting injustice. And there was a huge part of history that lit a fire under me, which was the story of the so-called “Comfort Women”. Before and during World War II, the Japanese military abducted over 200,000 women and girls and forced them into sexual slavery to serve their troops for the sake of Japanese wartime morale. It was the biggest incidence of human trafficking in history and a story that had not been told to an American audience. So, that’s the story I was determined to tell, and my roommates at the time joked that I should set an alarm clock for when to go to bed because it literally kept me up at night trying to figure out how to tell this enormous story. I read books on how to craft story and was using screenplay competitions as deadlines for myself. Each time a deadline came up, I would have a new draft.
Then, surprisingly, I ended up winning the Grand Prize in the Slamdance Screenplay Competition. The irony is that I never thought I would even place as a semi-finalist or quarterfinalist in such a big national competition. I only submitted because they offered professional coverage. But the most moving aspect of that experience was when they asked the ten finalists to come to the WGA where they would announce the winner, and when I introduced myself to one of the readers, that I was the one who wrote “SONG OF SILENCE”, tears sprung to her eyes and she told me how much the screenplay moved her. And in that moment, I thought, if nothing else, that was worth it, because I affected her. I moved her. And that was everything. That was really how I transitioned from performing to writing. I learned that I could have an impact writing and get people to empathize with and have compassion for others.
Read Part 2 of my conversation with screenwriter Miranda Kwok here.
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